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1 shutdown  Tue, Sep 27, 2011 11:50:38am

Can't say I think he should get a free pass on being a senior functionary at CAIR

Anti-Defamation League summary of CAIR positions on Terrorism

2 RoadWarrior  Tue, Sep 27, 2011 11:58:11am

CAIR "dissembles" on all issues. CAIR is a perfect example of a radical Islamist organization that uses our own system of freedoms against us.

The American Islamic Forum for Democracy is a prime example of a moderate Islamic organization that doesn't mince words--it opposes killing civilians and it opposes imposing shariah law, either upon Muslim or upon non-Muslims.

Were the applicant a member of AIFD and were harassed, that would be bad.

However, the applicant was a member of CAIR.

CAIR implements the jihadist techniques of kitman or taqiyaah, lying to the infidels to mislead them on CAIR's intentions.

If someone...anyone...here at LGF disagrees with me and believes that I am unfair in that assessment, please make your case, as I would like to hear it.

3 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 27, 2011 12:04:53pm

re: #2 RoadWarrior

CAIR "dissembles" on all issues. CAIR is a perfect example of a radical Islamist organization that uses our own system of freedoms against us.

The American Islamic Forum for Democracy is a prime example of a moderate Islamic organization that doesn't mince words--it opposes killing civilians and it opposes imposing shariah law, either upon Muslim or upon non-Muslims.

Were the applicant a member of AIFD and were harassed, that would be bad.

However, the applicant was a member of CAIR.

CAIR implements the jihadist techniques of kitman or taqiyaah, lying to the infidels to mislead them on CAIR's intentions.

If someone...anyone...here at LGF disagrees with me and believes that I am unfair in that assessment, please make your case, as I would like to hear it.

CAIR branches can be independent. You may want to see what Hamze has to say here.

4 shutdown  Tue, Sep 27, 2011 1:13:03pm

re: #3 celticdragon

Branches may be nominally "independent", but if Hamze is so far off the political line of CAIR, he should not be comfortable within the organization. I can't go work for a branch of JP Morgan and decide unilaterally what interest rates to charge, or that interest is bad and money should be free. I can put a kinder, gentler face on company policy, but I cannot rewrite it. Nor can Hamze.

5 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Tue, Sep 27, 2011 2:49:15pm

re: #2 RoadWarrior

CAIR implements the jihadist techniques of kitman or taqiyaah, lying to the infidels to mislead them on CAIR's intentions.

If someone...anyone...here at LGF disagrees with me and believes that I am unfair in that assessment, please make your case, as I would like to hear it.

Could you provide a more substantial argument structure?

I'm not a fan of CAIR , but the fact that you're invoking kitman and taqiyya while eliding them makes me want to know the source of your argumentation and what specific evidence can be cited as implementation of either technique.

There's lots of crap I'd critique about CAIR--ducking and weaving about past interaction with Hamas, orchestrating anti-Israel events that incorporate Anti-Semitic signs and materials, having shoddy message control and letting individual branches do their own thing, allowing pro-terroist messages at events--all which nullifies their activities I deem as positive.

But implementation of a two-faced agenda isn't one of them.

6 RoadWarrior  Tue, Sep 27, 2011 11:47:36pm

Ducking and weaving, as you yourself mention, is an example of taqiyya / kitman, is it not?

7 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 12:40:56pm

re: #6 RoadWarrior

Ducking and weaving, as you yourself mention, is an example of taqiyya / kitman, is it not?

No. Ducking and weaving makes them assholes.

Taqiyya is a specific dispensation amongst Muslims to dissemble about their religion when under threat or duress. The concept is more frequently cited amongst the Shia, who have been persecuted by Sunni majorities many times. Sunnis almost never invoke the construct, and the term isn't a part of their legal interpretations, because it's rare that they've been in a threat/duress position--pretty much the last time the idea was implemented was during the Reconquista. Sunni legal works tend to dwell on the same issue of coercion through concept of idtirar, "being forced"--basically debating the morality of being coerced into doing acts prohibited by the faith. There is no positive component to taqiyya or idtirar: it's a dispensation for deception in the face of obvious threat. If Islamic morality is fairly close to the Kantian absolutism about deception, these are the footnotes that let you lie to the guy chasing someone with in axe.

Kitman is lying when in a position where honesty makes one vulnerable to harm...generally, the accepted form of kitman is lie by omission, not active construction of deception. The concept, however, is variably interpreted to mean harm to the self or harm to the umma (larger Islamic community). It's quite a controversial subject in Islamic jurisprudence, especially around arguments-by-analogy based on Muhammed's use of deception in his campaign versus the Qayrash, and whether or not his treaty-breaking in Medina constituted a form of deception. Theoretically, the acts of individuals like Arafat--who said one thing and did another--might be described as kitman, but you wouldn't be able to get a consensus from scholars on that...and the concept isn't actually invoked very often.

Terrorists lie, deceive, and dissemble, but it's got nowt to do with some fairly obscure legal terms...they're just bastards who think they're entitled to do what they want to achieve their ends. Rather like the autocrats that run so many Middle Eastern states are bastards who wave about piety to justify their actions. All of these Islamic terrorist groups have one thing in common: they kill Muslims that question their "version" of Islam--and especially target scholars--and for a damn good reason...their "Islam" is a hash of grievance culture and lazy-and-selective reading of source materials. There is exactly *zero* way to reconcile what they do and the rules of war laid out by Muhammad, nor the criterion for al-jihad al-asghar as encoded in fiqh and fatwas.

8 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Wed, Sep 28, 2011 12:46:23pm

Here's the thing, though...these terms has been seized on by people that want to take the whole religion and paint it as deceptive and secretly conspiring. Google either word and you get sites run by professional Islamophobes--and I mean literally professional, in that they get paid money to scaremonger--who ignore a thousand years of debate and division in the religion's jurisprudence. They have no interest in explaining the meaning of these words beyond making them scare terms. They don't care that they're spinning the meaning of words, putting them in the mouths of terrorists, then claiming that the terrorists speak for everyone else...that's a feature not a bug.

I'm not trying to dump on you, but I take the time to write this sort of stuff out because dozens of people I've known have been killed by the Taliban and Al Qaeda for being "the wrong kind of Muslim"--starting, by the way, back in the 80s, before America gave a crap about Af-Pak--yet my dead friends and family are then lumped in with their murderers, implicated in "deceiving infidels" and harboring terrorists. So yeah, I'm really picky about languages and claims. I've had AKs and jezails pointed at me in Pakistan while I helped my family flee in the 00s, and now I get phone threats because I'm a "terrorist sympathizer" [which, afaict, means I'm a big white man who gets visits from brown people...that our "secret meetings" involve trips to the local bakery and the children's library doesn't mitigate anything].


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